Dora ([info]sigelphoenix) wrote,
@ 2007-12-18 11:20:00
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Current mood: *eyeroll*
Entry tags:dating and relationships, feminism and sexism

Return of "The Nice Guy"
Hey, girls! Don't you know that when a guy provides you with emotional intimacy, it is your obligation to be "reciprocating, in kind, with physical intimacy"?

No? Well, that's why you can't find a Nice Guy to date, obviously. Because don't you know, having an emotional connection with someone is only and ever important to a dude for the sake of getting at the poontang.

Yeah, it's more "Women are shallow bitches! I only treat you well because I expect sex in return! ... Women must not like me because I'm too nice, right?" ranting from another socially backward privilege-boy drowning in his own sense of entitlement. The letter itself is pretty painful to read, with the amount of "That? I deserve that because I have a penis" going on.

Luckily, Mightgodking's response makes it all worthwhile. And Ragnell has a more productive and slightly less snarky breakdown of The Nice Guy here.

I admit that The Nice Guy is kind of a sore spot for me, because I had plenty of personal experience with the phenomenon back in high school. And then, interestingly enough, my relationship with [info]ratzeo started out with some of the same structure that Nice Guys attempt to exploit - he was my best friend who also helped me through some dating woes. But then (shockingly!) he did not expect me to fall over myself with gratitude at the fact that he was a decent person, nor to express that gratitude with sexual favors. In fact, when we started dating a long time later, we entered into a mutually respectful relationship that wasn't predicated on him fostering a false sense of guilt-ridden indebtedness in me. And, wonder of wonders, that made me a lot happier. Who knew.

So, yeah - as someone who has been inflicted with The Nice Guy, as someone whose partner could have been a Nice Guy but wasn't, and as someone who herself was socially awkward and could have become a Nice Girl - I have no sympathy. Guys like this neither need, nor deserve, anything beyond a bit of social education and their own right hands.

x-posted to IJ


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[info]sjen
2007-12-18 08:17 pm UTC (link)
Well, Sean was a special case for you that doesn't really exist in the real world 'cause he's an alien and all...). ^^;;

In my personal experience... three of the really close platonic guy friends of my childhood eventually ended up getting ticked at me for not having sex with them. And I had NO CLUE they were expecting anything, either! The only difference here being that I didn't have a mean boyfriend, or ANY boyfriend... I just didn't want to have sex with anyone, period. And I was pretty open about advertising that, but they apparently weren't listening.

And it was distressing to me, because I just thought they just wanted to be friends and I never figured I was stringing them along. What they did violated that friendship. It didn't make me feel guilty, it made me angry. And to this day, that's why I have a hard time being friendly with guys. I just don't trust them to truly be a friend and respect my asexualism. My best platonic guy friend now is gay, and that's the only way that's worked out. :/ Otherwise, I try to make sure they already have a girlfriend, so that I'm safe (as messed up as that sounds). ^^

So I agree, a guy thinking they're entitled to something just 'cause they're nice is actually a lot creepier than a guy just coming out and saying what he wants. I don't want these underhanded mind games! Nice Guys think the girl is being misleading, well be a Nice Guy for the wrong reasons is way more misleading. I'm not an observant person! I don't notice these social subtleties!

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[info]sigelphoenix
2007-12-19 12:06 am UTC (link)
True, dating an alien probably makes my experience unique. XD

You're right, mind games suck and unfortunately a lot of people of any gender have been socialized into thinking it's good or necessary to pursue romance that way. All the mainstream romance stories seem to think it's great to have angsty misunderstandings or not be honest about your feelings. >_>

The Nice Guys' mind games are worse because they're so ... sinister, I guess. Nice on the surface, while they're building this resentment and rage against you. Ugh.

I hope you have better guy friends someday. :/

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[info]nekokoban
2007-12-18 08:25 pm UTC (link)
Ironically (or perhaps not?) when guys bitch about Nice Guys never winning, you and Sean are always who I think of first. XD Though I think the biggest difference is that Sean is a nice guy without being a Nice Guy, and it feels like to be the latter, you must be inherently unable to see the difference.

The letter is creepy as all get-out, though; o-on the one hand, he actually comes out and says he expects sex for friendship instead of whining and being passive-aggressively emo about it, on the other ... ew. Just. Ew.

Though my own experiences are vaguely skewed. I had several close guy-friends in Austin, and at least two of them confessed that they'd WANTED to ask me out -- after they started dating other friends of mine -- but never did because apparently my "I'm not interested let's be friends! :D" foo was very strong. It was bizarre.

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[info]kyonkun
2007-12-18 09:47 pm UTC (link)
I guess the difference between nice guys (your friends, I'm assuming) and Nice Guys are that if you're not interested, it's not held against you.

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[info]nekokoban
2007-12-18 10:20 pm UTC (link)
I don't THINK it was held against me; both times it got mentioned, it was in a sort of laughingly "oh haha, isn't that silly?" kind of way. :)

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[info]kyonkun
2007-12-18 11:59 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, that's what I assumed from how you told it. :D

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[info]sigelphoenix
2007-12-19 12:23 am UTC (link)
But Sean is such a jerk. ;)

Yeah, real nice guys are so obviously different when you meet them, because they're not waving around signs about how they're "Nice! I'm Nice! See how much Nicer I am than your boyfriend? Touch my p33n."

Your experiences sound great - like, everyone is honest about their expectations! And no one owes anyone else romance! And your guy friends were comfortable enough around you to discuss their feelings! ... I wish more relationships could be like that. :/

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[info]mimerki
2007-12-18 09:01 pm UTC (link)
My issue with Nice Guys has consistently been that I am precisely the person I advertise myself to be. Under my brusque tomboy/geek exterior lies a brusque tomboy/geek interior that look almost exactly like the exterior. (Actually, the exterior is friendlier.) But since women are all secretly the same on some deep interior level, they must find that level. So it's a lot of "You don't have to hide behind X around me," where X changes wildly but is always something I'd never have thought I was hiding behind (ranging from apparently pretending to be a geek to being comfortable with sex to liking stompy boots - yet strangely never do they suggest that I'm hiding behind baked goods... which is the one item I might think didn't fit). I'm a lot more comfortable with people who actually want to change some trait of mine. If you'd like me to be less X, that's fine. I may listen. But being told that I'm not actually X? Will only encourage that behavior.

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[info]sigelphoenix
2007-12-19 12:27 am UTC (link)
Hm, yeah, you're right - Nice Guys do often assume that women are a homogeneous group, and also that they know everything about that group. So they "know" that all women date assholes, or they "know" that women exploit Nice Guys for emotional intimacy (rather than, say, actually wanting that friendship with them).

Guys have actually thought you "hide" behind your interests? O_o

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[info]mimerki
2007-12-19 02:48 am UTC (link)
Oh yes! Apparently large portions of what I thought was my personality is an act to keep people at bay or something I'm doing to please some guy. Stay back or I will discuss the X-Men with you! You have no idea how hot guys find it when you know more about comics than they do! (Okay, the second one is sort of accurate right up until they realize that you really do know more about comics than they do. When it shifts from "she reads comics!" to "she can discuss the membership of the Avengers, the Defenders, and Alpha Flight... at length" it apparently loses some sex appeal.)

Edited at 2007-12-19 05:47 am UTC

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[info]sigelphoenix
2007-12-19 07:21 pm UTC (link)
Well, yes, because at that point it stops being about impressing them (as if it ever was), and about your own interest. How selfish of you. :P

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[info]kyonkun
2007-12-18 09:27 pm UTC (link)
MDK Says:

Runs both ways kids, if you want someone who’s in shape, GET IN SHAPE, if you want someone who smells nice, SMELL NICE. Have something in common with someone.

The whole response had me snickering, but this comment made me laugh the most. XD

You know, (sort of) playing devil's advocate, maybe the girl-in-question really did act shallow, inconsiderate, etc. There do exist women like that, just like there exist Nice Guys. That said, this isn't really the type of situation that you can do Eye for an Eye, so to speak. It's just absurd. "You were a bitch to me so now I'm going to be an asshole and haha serves you right"... what? If the girl Nice Guy directed this too really was as awful as he makes her out to be in his "letter," I'm betting she really doesn't give a shit.

And I guess it's redundant to say his reasoning has absolutely no... reason? My best friends are male, you know this. I didn't stop hanging out with them because it was "weird" since I was dating M. And when I was single, I was never expected to reciprocate like that. WTF.

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[info]sigelphoenix
2007-12-19 12:37 am UTC (link)
That was a good one. XD I'm glad I read that, because it made me laugh instead of cry over the stupidity. :P

The thing is, though, the "wrong" that the girl-in-question committed is not having sex with the guy. We don't have the evidence to show that she was even a jerk, because the guy has proven himself to be an unreliable source who interprets decent treatment of women as a favor to them, sex as a method of payment, and women as an identical, shallow, selfish mass.

So you're right, there is the chance that he was actually treated poorly. It's just that his behavior is so egregious I don't think it's worth it to grant him the time of giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Which might be harsh, but like I said: sore spot, no sympathy. :P

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[info]kyonkun
2007-12-19 01:40 am UTC (link)
Oh, I wasn't defending his actions by any means. And I wasn't trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, though I guess that's kind of what I did. :x I meant exactly what you said, you just said it better. :x I will stop talking now.

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[info]sigelphoenix
2007-12-19 07:24 pm UTC (link)
You don't have to stop talking. :P It's just that I don't even want to spend *any* time speculating on possible excuses for him. I'll only spend that time for the guys who actually are hurt by jerks (and don't abuse their privilege to make themselves feel better).

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[info]kyonkun
2007-12-19 07:29 pm UTC (link)
I think I shouldn't have said "maybe the girl-in-question..." because re-reading that, that's where I want to correct myself. I think I just wanted to mention that manipulative people of both genders exist. But the behavior of either doesn't justify the expectations or reactions that others have as a result. I think. Basically, I was starting to wander away from the specific incident... haha. :x

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[info]big_wired
2007-12-19 03:00 pm UTC (link)
Ugh, these kinds of things always makes me cringe because I acted like that SO MUCH back in high school, and it's one of the most embarrassing times in my life.

I thought that because I was the Nice Guy, that I was done a great injustice when the girls I liked always dated the jerks in high school. I may have acted nice, but I sure as heck wasn't considerate.

I certainly hope that, should I meet someone, that I don't act like that at all, as well as towards any stranger I meet.

Just... UGH... I just want to erase that time from high school altogether and just become as mature as I am today.

At least I hope I'm mature. >_>

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[info]sigelphoenix
2007-12-19 07:30 pm UTC (link)
You're not the only one who regrets their high school self. ;)

I'm guessing the Nice Guy phenomenon is more common in high school, because when guys are at that age/environment where their self-esteem takes a hit, it's easy for them to exploit their privilege to preserve their own egos. So alongside the Nice Guys are people who use blatantly homophobic insults, make fun of kids with disabilities, etc. etc.

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[info]big_wired
2007-12-19 11:57 pm UTC (link)
What's worse about that is that the guys who start out as the bad Nice don't... grow up.

People make mistakes, yes, but if you're acting a certain way and you don't know it, it's not your fault, right? But if you ARE shown that you're acting in a certain bad way and you don't change, then it's your fault.

And yeah, even to this day, guys my age still toss around gay insults, like "That's so gay."

I call them on it though, telling them how stupid it is to call something gay and asking how something could be gay.

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[info]sigelphoenix
2007-12-20 12:20 am UTC (link)
I call them on it though, telling them how stupid it is to call something gay and asking how something could be gay.

Let me guess ... their answer is something along the lines of, "We don't mean it literally" or "It's just a word." In my experience, people who are confronted about their bigoted use of language try to pass it off by acting like they can decide what a word's definition and connotations are.

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[info]ravenveil
2007-12-19 07:08 pm UTC (link)
You have to check out this website on Nice Guys. The first link is their main page, the second is my favorite rant. You have to check the responses though, some of the Nice Guys are so funny in their attempts to explain why it's all women's fault.

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml
http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml

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[info]sigelphoenix
2007-12-19 07:31 pm UTC (link)
I've read the comic from that page, but none of their rants. Good stuff. (I think I'll avoid the comments, though. :P)

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