Dora ([info]sigelphoenix) wrote,
@ 2006-09-22 02:36:00
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Current mood: sleepy
Entry tags:anti-racism and racial privilege, sex and body issues

A conversation on body image
When I was growing up, I didn't wish I was white. I didn't look at my Barbie dolls and ask my parents why I didn't look like her. I didn't envy my white friends and think, "If I was their race, my life would be better." Of course not.

It was never that obvious.

Here's what I wished: I wished that my eyes were blue and not so narrow, because the ideals of beauty I saw and read and heard about had wide, sky-blue eyes. I wished that my nose, which is wide and flat like my father's, was more narrow and perky. Even though I loved my long hair, and I felt flattered when all the girls would ask to play with it, I wished it weren't so stick-straight, and that it would fall in waves or curls like theirs. I wished that my lips weren't so full, that my smile would be more of a thin, dimple-inducing curve (oh, and I felt left out because I didn't have dimples). I worried that my voice sounded like a boy's, and I wished it could be high and cute like other girls'.

I didn't wish I was a white girl. I just wished I was exactly like a white girl.



I still do, sometimes. I have to catch myself at those times when I try to compare myself to the racialized beauty ideals I see - on TV and magazines and all those expected places, but also in less obvious ways. For example, even if a makeup counter doesn't have a (white) female model pictured somewhere prominent, you pick up pretty quickly what their model woman is when the "flesh tones" are all pinkish-beige, and the lipsticks are all about plumping up your lips (which assumes that your lips aren't already full). Or what about fantasy novels that overwhelmingly feature European medieval settings, or draw from Western folklore, thus effectively whitewashing their characters even if the author doesn't intend to exclude people of color? (That's changing lately, but it's still hard to find non-European derived fantasy novels that don't Other dark-skinned people as savage or evil, or rely on "wise old samurai" Asian stereotypes. I would actually really appreciate recs, if anyone has them.)

Not long ago, I read a response to Pam Noles' essay on the whitening of Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea books, in which the (white male) writer said that consciously adding racial diversity to fantastic fiction was unnecessary, and implied that it was the fault of people of color who simply couldn't imagine themselves in the place of the protagonists.

There's a lot to be said about the assumptions and privilege behind that kind of attitude, but let's bring it back to my original topic: body image. It's easy enough for someone to tell women (and girls) of color to just imagine themselves in place of the women whom society gives the title of the ideal, to find our own beauty amidst the cultural images. But it's hard to ignore the bombardment of images in our culture - which is not only visual media-centered, but also disproportionately relies on female bodies as the visual object. Furthermore, the subtler messages still push us toward a white-centric ideal: pale skin (or a golden tan, which cuts out black women), long and smooth hair (not kinky), wide eyes (not slanty or with Asian-style eyelids), high-pitched voices. Even the women of color who are lauded for their beauty often fit these criteria - think of how we tend to focus on light-skinned black women more than dark-skinned, such as the biracial Halle Berry. I don't have to think "I wish I was white"; instead I just find myself wishing that I was like white women.

This is how I got the message about what's pretty, even when I was in elementary school and uneducated about race issues. It's only as I've grown up that I've realized what kind of racist biases underlie these ideals, but it's been easy for me to learn about them, because they aren't new concepts - just new names for ideas I was already familiar with.

I'm yellow-skinned and squinty-eyed. I don't fit. But I do win back a few points, due to the fetishization of Asian women. We're "exotic." We've got that mystical "Oriental" beauty. We're passive and pliant and all "me love you long time," right? And if you haven't heard the myth of Asian women's vaginas being smaller, sideways, or otherwise especially fuckable - well, lucky you.

Oh, and let's not forget - we're especially hungry for white men, because yellow guys are effeminate/small-dicked/old-fashioned and sexist (yeah, they're the sexist ones ...). We're the exotic Other, open for sexual plundering by vanilla guys looking for something exciting. I know the attitudes; I've been the target. I also know that I can be used to feed them because I'm with a white man. There isn't a single thing in the world I would trade my relationship for, but god if I don't wish I could tear it free from all the racist bullshit baggage.

I'm talking about this now, not because I have a solution, but because ... well, because I want to talk about it. It's something that we all know - POC or white - even if we don't think about it consciously or know the name for it.

The power of identifying it, however, is that it's easier to reject it - I can see how false these ideals are.

Also, I'm talking about this because I know I'm not the only one who doesn't fit. None of us do. If it isn't because we're the wrong color, it's because we're those "freaky" trans who break from gender traditions and aren't feminine enough, or manly enough. Or because we like girls - but, dammit, not in that pseudo-bisexual way that's all about getting a guy's dick up and not about actually having relationships with women (and, of course, having sex with him in the end, and only being with women if he's there to watch). Or because we don't have the able body that society likes to pretend is the only kind that exists, conveniently forgetting that almost a fifth of us don't have "normal" ability. Or we are white, female, and feminine - but too "fat" to fit a size 2, or don't have surgically enhancednaturally gravity-defying cleavage, or aren't six-feet and 110 pounds.

I just want to talk about this. We don't talk about this nearly enough - we all see and know and absorb these impossible beauty standards, and we hear some lip service from the media about how yes, they are impossible, but we don't get actual attempts to fix it so we'll stop being dissatisfied with how we look. So we end up detached from our own bodies, looking at ourselves from a critical distance and hating how they're shaped and being dissatisfied with what color they are and wishing we could change them instead of just. You know. Living in them.

So, if you'd care to, talk to me about how you don't fit. What kind of messed up things society tells you about being female (or not) and having a body, because for some reason those things aren't good enough on their own, even though they should be. Feel free to share whatever you want. I'd like to listen.



x-posted to Shrub.com




(40 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]morchades
2006-09-22 10:22 am UTC (link)
Well, guess I'll go next.

My nose is too round. Pretty girls have pointy noses, or button noses. I have a "man's nose." That, more than anything, got me as a kid. The nose.

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[info]sigelphoenix
2006-09-22 10:52 pm UTC (link)
And how ridiculous is that? I mean, to assign a sex to a body part that isn't even a sexual organ. What, did your nose check out women? Watch a lot of sports, try to scratch its imaginary crotch?

By the way, your icon is amusing. :D

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[info]tekanji
2006-09-23 01:58 am UTC (link)
My experience wasn't as bad as Ragnell's, but my mom says that when she married into dad's family they pressured her to get a nose job. She said when I was little there was even talk about them getting one for me when I became a teenager.

It makes me wonder if that's where my anxiety over my nose came from when I was smaller. I'm just glad that I was given the chance to love and accept it.

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[info]sigelphoenix
2006-09-24 06:48 am UTC (link)
It makes me wonder if that's where my anxiety over my nose came from when I was smaller.

I wouldn't be surprised. I can trace my own worry over certain features - like my nose! - back to the treatment I received from parents and other adults when I was little. In my case, my parents kept pinching my nose to try to "make" it smaller, so of course I assumed that the way it was, was wrong.

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[info]morchades
2006-09-23 08:27 am UTC (link)
Thanks. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Work, brain! Work! ...... Or not. Ramble some more? OK.
[info]lord_dingsi
2006-09-22 10:56 am UTC (link)
And if you haven't heard the myth of Asian women's vaginas being smaller, sideways, or otherwise especially fuckable - well, lucky you.

What the... wha... O_O
*has no words*

Also, I'm talking about this because I know I'm not the only one who doesn't fit. None of us do. If it isn't because we're the wrong color, it's because we're [snip]

I so love you for this paragraph. Because it is so, so rare that I read something and feel -- see, read -- people like me being included. I think I'm actually a bit teary-eyed. But just a bit. And only because I've got something in my eye. 'k?

So, if you'd care to, talk to me about how you don't fit.

Oh. Oh my.

I never felt attractive. I didn't get all this girly stuff with short skirts and make-up and ear rings and whatnot. I think I was nineteen when I started to wear make-up, and I did it in a sort-of clumsy way.

The goth scene helped. That was a use of make-up and colours and clothes (e.g. blue hair, purple lips, black fish net everywhere, whathaveyou) I could understand, and find pretty. It was also very androgynous when compared to other subcultures or mainstream media images, especially with the punk influences. I think one of my issues with the growing (and, by now, established) trend of fetish and bdsm wear in the goth subculture stems from the fact that it re-inforces gender norms (and showing off as much skin as possible, which is almost the exact opposite of the "oldschool" goth ideals).

I had a very short period, though, where I discovered the magic abilities of MY CLEAVAGE. When I wore corsets and stuff, suddenly people told me how attractive I was. Stunning. Blah. There was also the image of the "hot kinky goth/punk grrl" playing into it, I guess. However, suddenly I got attention.

I just... wasn't happy with it. It wasn't what I wanted. It felt good, at first, but... no.

And time passed, and my outfit changed -- more and more I gravitated towards the minimalistic 80s stuff, wore jackets, put the fishnets away and wore trousers again, bought some boots, cut off some of my hair, used less and less make-up, bought ties and shirts... and, on a personal level? To me? I was beautiful that way.

But not to most men I met. Over and over again they told me that they preferred "more feminine" women. In dresses. With long hair. And cleavage. Whereas I, the not-quite-out yet transperson, tried to hide my impressive C-cups as much as possible without binding them. It was a hurtful and confusing time, because I noticed that being me meant being unattractive, just like before. (And being weird, of course, because most people couldn't deal with calling me "he" and stuff. Or complained when I wanted them to sit on my lap at parties, because that's "what men do with their girlfriends", and not vice versa... vice versa was "rididulous".)

Long story. Hmph. Better stop right here.

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Re: Work, brain! Work! ...... Or not. Ramble some more? OK.
[info]rivetcat
2006-09-22 03:24 pm UTC (link)
Wow, that...a lot of that really resonates for me, right up to the bit with goth culture being the first (and so far, really, the only) place where I could find *a* femininity that I could wear without feeling completely horrible -- the goth fetish-femme was obviously a costume enough that it didn't really bother me, even if it was sort of depressing to see the difference in the ways that people responded to me wearing latex or corsets instead of combat boots and fatigues.

I think that my increasing difficulty being "feminine" was one of the major issues that put tensions on my last relationship -- my partner at the time was trying very hard to have a normal heterosexual relationship and I was...not really holding up my end of the bargain (after I cut my hair, we did occasionally get yelled at by people who mistook us for two guys, among other more personal problems with gender roles and sexual attitudes).

I...don't really have a conclusion for this, I don't think, except -- I hope you're in a better place now, where you've been able to make more peace between your own identity and the ideals that our culture presents for us.

And Dora, thanks for starting this conversation.

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Re: Work, brain! Work! ...... Or not. Ramble some more? OK.
[info]sigelphoenix
2006-09-24 06:56 am UTC (link)
my partner at the time was trying very hard to have a normal heterosexual relationship and I was...not really holding up my end of the bargain

You know, I've talked about something like this with Sean - despite how happy I am that he ignores a lot of cultural imperatives regarding gender roles, and despite the fact that I know how harmful these expectations about gender and sexuality are, I still feel instinctively uncomfortable when he/we stray from them. Which is absurd. But it also reminds me how deeply ingrained these cultural assumptions are.

(Not that I think this excuses your partner's reaction. Then again, I think your relationship situation has worked out for the best, so.)

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Ramble some more, pt. 2
[info]lord_dingsi
2006-09-25 12:15 pm UTC (link)
Hi! *waves* I'd like to say a general "thank you" first, for your friendly comment and also because it made me think. It took me some time to... to cool down, actually; gender/femininity and its norms are such a touchy subject for me that I often tend to misread (and misinterpret) the replies of others in a negative way. But, yeah, I had time to think about it and it's okay, really.

*a* femininity that I could wear without feeling completely horrible -- the goth fetish-femme was obviously a costume enough that it didn't really bother me

That's an aspect of it that didn't come to my mind. All I see is that it repeats the imperatives of "be sexy", "show some T&A", and so on and combines it with "being feminine", and I'm having huge issues with that, especially because one reason I got into the goth scene was it being NOT about "sexiness" and T&A (well, at least it used to be like that... years ago).
And yet, a costume is another way of seeing it and it's just as valid. I mean, it definitely takes lots of time and effort to dress like that. And it would be selfish to tell others they should not wear their costumes of choice, although they might make me feel uncomfortable. It was a good thing for you, and I respect that.

after I cut my hair, we did occasionally get yelled at by people who mistook us for two guys
*nods* In my case, I would take it as a compliment, as a validation of me being male-gendered -- of course, they don't intend it to be a compliment *cough*, but at least their homophobia tells me I've "passed" as male. Actually, this aspect is a source of confuzzlement every time... when I'm with a guy, I feel pretty gay, but on the outside I'm perceived as being in a heterosexual relationship. When I'm with my girlfriend, it's the other way round -- people think I'm a butch lesbian and "out and proud", when I'm feeling rather insignificant as a "typical hetero". It's really weird.

I hope you're in a better place now, where you've been able to make more peace between your own identity and the ideals that our culture presents for us.
Thanks, but... I don't think that's even possible as long as our society doesn't change its approach to gender roles and transpeople. My own understanding of gender and sexuality is quite fluid and, I like to think, fairly relaxed as well. I'm not the problem. My "making peace" is not the problem. The coin has two sides, actually.
What I have is a circle of close friends and understanding acquaintances who accept me the way I am, don't mind my tits, think I am attractive, don't mess up the pronouns... and I've got a wonderful girlfriend as well. In that case, yes, I am in a better position. :) (And probably that was what you meant...?)

P.S.: Combat boots and fatigues are absolutely sexy. ;)

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Re: Work, brain! Work! ...... Or not. Ramble some more? OK.
[info]sigelphoenix
2006-09-22 10:56 pm UTC (link)
What the... wha... O_O
*has no words*


Yeah. Pretty much. >_<

I so love you for this paragraph. Because it is so, so rare that I read something and feel -- see, read -- people like me being included. I think I'm actually a bit teary-eyed. But just a bit. And only because I've got something in my eye. 'k?

Eh. I'm a straight cisgendered woman who doesn't stray very far from expectations of the female role. It's way too easy for me to forget that there are other experiences of gender and sexuality, and society helps me forget. I mean, I'm glad you appreciated what I wrote, it's just ... I don't do nearly enough.

But thank you for sharing. I can't really respond to your story because I don't share the experience, but ... I'm really glad I got to hear it.

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Hmmm. Forgive me when I'm going on a tangent here.
[info]lord_dingsi
2006-09-23 03:20 pm UTC (link)
I mean, I'm glad you appreciated what I wrote, it's just ... I don't do nearly enough.
But thank you for sharing. I can't really respond to your story because I don't share the experience, but ... I'm really glad I got to hear it.


Well, I... okay. Easy things first.
1. You're welcome.
2. Sharing the experience is not that important, really. Besides, not even the trans community as such is a happy bubble place; otherwise communities like [info]transenough wouldn't exist. What I always wanted was respect and understanding, and for that? "Sharing" is not required.

You say you don't do nearly enough. And maybe that's true. We could all do more, I guess. Until we have bled out completely. I don't know.
See, even the small things.. they pile up. And they are appreciated. Don't belittle it. What you did, was:
1. mentioning trans*-people even though you didn't have to, making them visible / acknowledging their existence,
2. due to the context of the post, making clear that the strict boundaries of, and expectations / pressure connected with, rigid gender (binary) norms are actually as harmful as lookism / ablism / etc., and
3. therefore also implying that society's treatment of trans- or otherwise genderqueer people has to change for the better.

So don't think reading posts like yours wouldn't matter to transpeople. It's sending out a signal. A small one, but believe me that "we" react very sensitive to even the smallest things when it comes to "us" being in- or excluded.

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Re: Hmmm. Forgive me when I'm going on a tangent here.
[info]sigelphoenix
2006-09-24 07:00 am UTC (link)
Yes, you're right. I also appreciate the small things that acknowledge my experience outside of what is considered normal.

Thank you for what you said. It's made me quite thoughtful.

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[info]linaerys
2006-09-22 12:41 pm UTC (link)
I'm six feet tall and a size 10 or 12. Relatively slim and well-proportioned, and a lot of people would say clothes are made for me. But they're not. I'm too big. When I go into stores in SoHo, the proprieters sneer and say, "Well, maybe an extra large."

There are many people who don't fit as well as I do: I have the big blue eyes, the pink-white skin--what is interesting about this conversation is even though I SHOULD fit, even though I am thisclose to fitting, I still am made to feel big and ungainly and inconveniently large.

I have a friend who works for Vogue, and the thing that we all need to realize is that the bulk of high fashion models are 12 to 16 years old. The bulk of other models are 16 to 20. When I was 14, I had that body too. I was 6 feet tall and 110 pounds, and let me tell you, it's unpleasant because I was so underweight I was always dizzy and sick, and also, it doesn't last. Those girls are considered to be at the height of beauty before their bones are finished growing. From age 14 to 18 my hips got a lot bigger even though I got no taller.

I am still "lucky" and I fit into the mold pretty well, although I've been told by men that they'd date me if only I weren't "so big" and "so tall," but the important thing about the mold is that no one fits it. Not even the women in the pictures fit it.

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[info]sigelphoenix
2006-09-24 07:15 am UTC (link)
but the important thing about the mold is that no one fits it. Not even the women in the pictures fit it.

Oh hell yes. I found a site (linked here, but unfortunately the feature is gone) that allowed you to compare the before and after versions of celebrity photos. Not only did it show us just how far from "perfect" even celebrity women are; comparing the two versions revealed what are seen as the places that need "improvement," such as cleavage (enlarging), waist (reducing), and any natural lines in the face.

Anyway. I like what you said about not quite being able to fit. I think we (mostly women) are constantly pushed to feel inadequate, like there's always one more thing to fix - such that we're always in the process, and never at the goal, of "perfecting" ourselves.

(Would date you if you weren't "so big"? Jeebus, do they think their penis size is inversely proportional to the stature of their girlfriends?)

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[info]tekanji
2006-09-22 02:31 pm UTC (link)
I've always felt weird about my weight. On the one hand, I'm pretty close to the societal ideal because I'm very thin.

On the other hand, I've grown up in a house where weight -- not just mine, but every single family member from my sister to my father to my cousins (male and female alike) -- was, and still is, a normal topic of conversation. It's not a subject I can opt out of, no matter how many times I tell them to stop. No matter how I say it -- I have literally said, "Fuck you, STOP IT!" and it doesn't change anything.

Not to mention that people who don't know me constantly ask people who do if I'm anorexic. It's not so bad when I'm working out so I have nice muscles, but when I do aerobic exercise I lose my fat really quickly. Since coming to Japan, I haven't had the time (or the drive) to weight train, but I bike to and from school every day so subsequently I've lost both arm muscle and fat and now people keep remarking on it.

Honestly, it makes me feel bad about myself.

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[info]sigelphoenix
2006-09-24 07:53 am UTC (link)
I've also had that problem - not only have I been skinny all my life, I've also had intermittent stomach issues that made me eat less. So I've had comments from various people implying or outright asking if I'm anorexic. Which is annoying, invasive, and kind of hurts my feelings.

I'm not saying this is anywhere near as bad as fatphobia (and you aren't, either, of course) but it is unnecessary and rude. Women's bodies are our own concern, thank you very much. And if people are so "worried" about us having eating disorders, why don't they turn their attention to the people and images that pressure women into weight-obsession and EDs in the first place?

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[info]nekokoban
2006-09-22 03:41 pm UTC (link)
... ironically enough, I've always thought you were one of the prettiest people I know. XD

I had the longest issues with my face for a long time because the taunt of the other kids on the playground at elementary school was "flatface" but now ... so I have a flat face. I have yet to turn anyone to stone by looking at them/them looking at me, people [usually] smile back if I smile at them, so it's obviously not THAT bad. XD

And while I like the LOOK of more traditionally-feminine clothes sometimes (since my commute takes me past a bunch of the window-shopping stores around Pike's), I can't imagine myself wearing them. BAGGY PANTS AND LONG SLEEVES FTW, DAMNIT.

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[info]sigelphoenix
2006-09-22 11:00 pm UTC (link)
See, that's the thing. I mean, pretty much everyone talking here (whom I've seen before, at least) is freaking beautiful. But we all have our "I'm not good enough because of _______" crap that we're carrying around. It's just ... argh. (But thank you very much. :D)

Oh noes, you have a face that ... has a shape. THE HORROR. XO I mean, never mind that it's lively and pretty and one of the friendliest faces I've ever met before. And baggy pants and long sleeves make you feel good, and look good on you, so what's the problem? Rargh. *gnashes teeth*

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[info]nekokoban
2006-09-22 11:15 pm UTC (link)
[laughs] Actually, last night, I got compliments on how I look in one of my new-ish shirts from the house -- which honestly actually makes me feel a little awkward when I wear it, because I forget how ... exaggerated it tends to make my cleavage. :p

In all honesty, I'd rather not be considered pretty, I'd rather be cute. Because then it's all the funnier when I bite someone's kneecaps off. :D My one concession is that I have promised Jen she can do my makeup come Halloween. XD

Shockingly, because I am not a white girl, I do not look like one. Can you IMAGINE THE NERVE OF ME. I'm such a bad person, Dora-P. D:

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[info]sigelphoenix
2006-09-24 07:21 am UTC (link)
Jeez, what is WRONG with you for not beign white? Can't you, like, fix that? :P

Okay, you have my approval for continuing to be cute and a kneecap hazard. XD

Also, your icon mesmerizes me. *stares*

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[info]nekokoban
2006-09-24 07:33 am UTC (link)
Well, I shall get to working on that RIGHT AWAY. Uh-huh. Yup. Workin' it.

Soon's I conquer the world and hand the reigns over to Kari. :p

I totally want to be a kneecap hazard. I am not terribly fond of boots because I don't like the clunky feeling I get from most of them (i.e., I am already clumsy, I do not need heavy shoes to add to it), but I can adapt! :D

And if I could figure out a way to make it smaller, I would totally make an icon of the ninja penguins. as it is, have a bunch of pirate ones. XD

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[info]kyonkun
2006-09-22 04:02 pm UTC (link)
WHY are you faulting girls who happen to be white, feminine, and size 0? It's not like they can help being so physically perfect, and it's so mean of everyone else to criticize them for what their natural physique is. It is discrimination. After all, everyone who DOESN'T look like that can CONTROL how they look, so it's their OWN fault for being non-white, non-feminine (by the arbitrary standards we've set) and a fatty size 2.

SARCASM++

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[info]sigelphoenix
2006-09-22 08:29 pm UTC (link)
Oh yeah, I forgot, this is, like, the "last acceptable form of discrimination"!

Or, wait - I thought the last acceptable form of discrimination was hating men. Or was it being racist against white people? Or forcing straight people to exist in the same world where gay people can be all gay?

OMG we're such haterz.

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[info]kyonkun
2006-09-22 09:01 pm UTC (link)
It sounds like the last acceptable form of discrimination is non-acceptance of groups that have established themselves or been established as the norm in their respective situations. That's the theme I see in your list... unfortunately.

(I should also note in my first comment that no I don't think everyone is a size 2 or anything; I just put that number in because it's immediately one size up from size 0 and thus is OMG FATTY.)

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blah BLAH blah blah.
[info]maho_kiwi
2006-09-22 04:10 pm UTC (link)
Mm, that's a fabulous essay there, and I loved reading all the comments you've gotten, too. It's nice ("nice") to see how easy it is to still be imperfect even for the people who have the things that are supposed to make them "pretty" -- blue eyes, big breasts, skinny. HA HA NOT ENOUGH >>

When I was in middle and highschool, I rarely felt pretty at all, but I think for me this had a lot more to do with confidence than anything.

I know I'm fairly vain, so I at least try (most days) to make sure my hair isn't doing something stupid and that I've got clothes I feel attractive in on. And then the rest of it has to be me telling myself 'yes, I am attractive, and outgoing, I can communicate with people'. I envy the people who seem to be naturally outgoing. They don't seem to have to work so hard at believing they're worth talking to >>

I never feel pretty when I'm in a bad mood. My mental energies aren't focussed enough on it V-V.

Completely tangentally, I have always been slightly jealous of how awesome you are, Dora. I think you're really beautiful. >: also you r smrt and clever and funny AND beautiful and NICE and goddammit knock it off right now! ;)

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Re: blah BLAH blah blah.
[info]sigelphoenix
2006-09-24 07:39 am UTC (link)
Ahahaha ... I don't know if this is funny or sad, but - I was kind jealous of you when we first met, because your type of beauty involves traits that I could never pull off (cute and vibrant and that kind of thing). So not only was it like, "hey, she's pretty," but "hey, she's pretty in these ways that you could never be you loser D:". Nowadays I try to acknowledge other people's beauty without trying to match it, and recognize that "different" doesn't have to mean "better than me cuz I suck." Because there are just some traits I'll never have, and that should be okay. But somehow it isn't, because, you know, you being cool in your own way somehow detracts from my ability to be cool in my own way. :P

I think women should be able to talk more about being jealous of each other, weird as that sounds. Because so much of the time we feel like we're competing with other women in the room/class/workplace, except we can't say that, and instead we end up harboring envy and resentment. Luckily I actually got to know you instead of having some sekrit grudge from afar - but I know a lot of women don't get to know each other, and this ends up souring their interactions. Which just perpetuates the stereotype that females are "catty" and don't get along. :/

/ramble

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Re: blah BLAH blah blah.
[info]maho_kiwi
2006-09-24 04:18 pm UTC (link)
well, now I feel like we're in one of those heartwarming family dramas. "But I thought you --" ^^v

It's a good idea, really, since once you *do* get to know people it's a lot harder to be angry at them for being things you aren't. Either they're working really hard for it (like, exercise wise) or it's something they have no control over and never asked for. Hard to be angry at a person for that ^^

From time to time I find myself wishing I could tell other women "wow, I really like your hair" or "that looks really cool on you" or, in one specific case "wow, I really like your nose" (she had a pretty big nose, but it...it *fit* her and it made her really compelling and interesting to look at. I thought she was beautiful~) but I feel like I can't because they'll think I'm a) a weirdo
b)making fun of them
c)hitting on them
when really I'm not trying to do any of that (well, I might be a weirdo, but I don't think I'm TRYING to be one ^^)

also, I am perpetually annoyed by the ideal that if you're noticing the attractiveness of other same-gendered people, you must be gay. I suppose this *is* why people don't go around randomly complimenting each others looks. Fear of retribution for that. rarararararar

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Re: blah BLAH blah blah.
[info]sigelphoenix
2006-09-25 11:06 pm UTC (link)
*"The more you know" rainbow* XD;;;

I remember an incident in my senior year of high school, when a couple of (mostly nice, intelligent, AP-caliber) guys were freaking out over one of my female classmates saying that she thought our female teacher was attractive. The classmate IDed as straight, but was just saying that our teacher was a good-looking woman. But noooo, it's weeeeiiird for a female to say that about another female, and it also makes you gaaaaay, which is baaaaad. Ugh.

I've gotten better at complimenting other women since I was that age, but it's still kind of an effort to do so. Which it shouldn't be, you know?`

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Square hole, round peg?
[info]zinjadu
2006-09-22 04:31 pm UTC (link)
While I still maintain round is a shape, being rounder than the *ahem* "standard" can be difficult. My health isn't in much danger, I carry the weight well and am actually in pretty good shape, but it can be frustrating to go clothes shopping when most sizes are for the dying to be thin girls. Lord knows that's why I don't like shopping at Buffalo Exchange. Nothing fits.

And despite the fact that I know I'm not fat, I sometimes find myself wishing I was thinner. That I wasn't prone to having that layer of fat, that in ye olden times would have saved my life in the hard winters, but now no one wants. I could work out all the freaking time and massively change my diet to get thinner, but most of the time I'm happy with the way I am. I don't want to end up like my mother, who I love dearly and needed to loose weight for health reasons, but has gone kind of off the deep end with it all. I just wish that being at a normal size didn't mean I wasn't trying hard enough to get thin like everyone else. >_>

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Re: Square hole, round peg?
[info]sigelphoenix
2006-09-24 07:43 am UTC (link)
And despite the fact that I know I'm not fat, I sometimes find myself wishing I was thinner.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that from a totally hot female acquaintance ... well I'd have a lot of nickels. >_> But you know.

I am very glad that you know, at least intellectually, that you are not "fat" or unattractive. Even if it's hard to really know it sometimes. I'm always here if you need a reminder, or someone to beat the stupid people who would try to make you believe otherwise. *humph*

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Ugly duckling syndrome?
[info]miss_arel
2006-09-22 06:11 pm UTC (link)
When I was little, I got made fun of a lot, for, well, a lot of things. But near the top of the list were my size and my glasses. I don't know what my weight was when I was in elementary school or whether it was a healthy weight for my size; what I do know is that I was a massive baby (over 10 pounds at birth) and right up until middle school I was almost always the tallest one in my grade. And looking back at photos from that time period, I was much chunkier than I am now.

In middle school, I guess as a result of hitting puberty and getting more exercise, I slimmed down quite a bit, but I still find myself feeling dissatisfied with and embarassed about my body, constantly comparing it to those I see around me, wishing I had slimmer thighs and a flat, non-lumpy stomach and no arm-flab.

My glasses, too, are still a problem. These days I can get away with not wearing them most of the time, but even now, whenever I put them on I feel ugly.

Now, let me tell you about my old job. I worked in an office with 6 other young women, all between the ages of 19 and I'd guess about 23 or 24. All of them were white; all of them were pretty; all of them had long, straight hair that ranged from dark brown to light blond. None of them wore glasses, all of them wore makeup; several of them had had boob jobs or other surgeries in the past. Being around them all day, even if they never said anything rude or degrading to me, really didn't do much for my self-esteem; I felt ugly and unattractive all the time. I mean, when they come in looking fabulous and fret about how 'hideous' they look while they're putting on makeup... it's like,, 'wow, what must you think of me?'

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Re: Ugly duckling syndrome?
[info]sigelphoenix
2006-09-24 07:50 am UTC (link)
Man, I wish women would stop doing that - acting as if full-makeup-and-impeccable-fashion was the basic standard of attractiveness, and anything natural was hideous. (I know I'm guilty of talking like that sometimes too. :/) It just puts more pressure on us to think that these excessive efforts are the default, and anything less than that is a "failure" to reach the "normal" level of pretty.

For the record, I think you look good with or without glasses. :D I hated mine for the longest time, too.

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Re: Ugly duckling syndrome?
[info]maho_kiwi
2006-09-24 04:22 pm UTC (link)
You know what I find creepy as hell? When women refer to putting on their makeup as "putting their face on"

Creepy and sad :(

I think a lot about glasses is also the ideas we've been given regarding them. Smart ("dorky") people wear glasses. Lord knows there are plenty of teen movies (and one making fun of them ;) ) where there's a beautiful girl hiding behind paint stained overalls and glasses, and once you take her out of those things and put her in something more "normal", everyone notices how attractive she is.

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[info]jennifergearing
2006-09-23 05:57 am UTC (link)
My mother banned me from the kitchen for three months when I was 15 as the culmination of about 5 years of 'omg you don't look like a tiny 4-foot Chinese girl'. She seemed to forget she'd married a Scottish guy. And I'd always get comments about my squished nose, and how I'm too tall to be Chinese, and aren't Asian girls supposed to be skinny?. People seemed to forget the part of me that was white the second they found out a part of me wasn't, and they held the part of me that wasn't up against a whole range of stupid stereotypes.

I have a stupidly dense bone structure that meant when I was pretty much devoid of fat as a fairly average-height 10yo, I weighed 70kg (150lbs). I keep having doctors tell me I should weigh that now, as a 22yo with D-cup breasts and hips and a good 5-7 inches of extra height (at least). I still feel like I weigh more than I should, and I weigh more than I feel comfortable with, but I think in some ways I'm lucky to remember what I weighed as a kid, and know just how absurd that is.

That said, most people, if they're just passing me in the street, will assume I'm white with a tan. Most people who spend more time with me end up asking that wonderfully respectful "so what are you?" question.

Actually, on the tan thing, whilst, like some of your other commenters, I intially found some comfort in the goth scene as a place to act out my femininity in a way that was comfortable for me. I still love big fuckoff boots. But the thing I found frustrating about the goth scene for a long time was the fact that I could never pull off that whole paleness thing. It didn't matter how much time I spent out of the sun, I could never acheieve that pastiness, and white make-up only achieved so much. And I loved to dance too much, so make-up just dripped off me. I eventually stopped bothering, but it was a slog, and it still makes me feel like shit, sometimes, even though I'm not that heavily in the scene anymore.

And perhaps one of the most gutting things, that didn't really hit me until some time later? A girl I was friends with up to about a year or so ago. We'd occasionally get comments asking if we were related because we apparently had some similar features. My friend would spend a good half-hour following any such comment going on about how she couldn't understand why people would think we looked alike, because "you're CHINESE!"

And the girl in high school who told me I shouldn't have kids because whilst firt-gen Anglo-Asian mixed kids are attractive, their kids are always ugly. I just ... yeah. The mind boggles.

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[info]sigelphoenix
2006-09-24 08:06 am UTC (link)
Wow, what a bunch of unnecessarily invasive and rude comments. Thanks for sharing your stories ... but I'm sorry you've had to deal with such asshattery.

Weight has always boggled my mind. I just don't understand why people are so obsessed with this number, because the same weight can mean hugely different things depending on height, musculature, etc. I mean, I was happy to gain a few pounds in high school because it meant my aerobics class was giving me muscles. And hell, I was probably skinnier too. (I feel similarly about clothing size - why do you care what size you wear, as long as you look good? No one else can see the number on your jeans tag.)

Thanks for bringing up the expectations within ethnic minority communities. Just because POC operate from a position of disadvantage when it comes to white people, it certainly doesn't mean they can't impose their own harmful standards on their children, especially girls. You could say that this is a way of reclaiming power, by finding a source of pride in having a unique beauty ideal - but, as always, there's someone in a position of less power who loses out as a result.

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[info]maho_kiwi
2006-09-24 04:07 pm UTC (link)
*nod* I worked with a girl in high school who was about an inch shorter than me and looked like she was pretty much the ideal weight, you know? Skinny and well-proportioned and everything fit her beautifully.

She weighed 140lbs

because she was PURE MUSCLE

it was amazing. Her body type was pretty much exactly like mine, and she outweighed me by 20 pounds. You couldn't tell, looking at her. Unless of course you were, you know, looking at her shoulders and arms ;)

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[info]moochymonster
2006-09-26 01:45 pm UTC (link)
I read through this shortly after you'd posted it and swore I'd come back when I had time. Then I forgot. :o)

"Or because we don't have the able body that society likes to pretend is the only kind that exists, conveniently forgetting that almost a fifth of us don't have "normal" ability."
Thank you.


I'm fat. I've always been fat to me. I remember as a 9 year old being worried about being fat. It was puppy fat. Then I became ill (ME/CFS/CFIDS) the puppy fat didn't go and without being able to exercise but still eating like normal (mainly) I gained weight. Since early teens the thinnest I've been and when I've been complimented most was while I was too depressed to go food shopping.

I've always felt my body was unacceptable. I'm not sure how much I cottoned on to a small amount of fat and transferred my disability on to that, blaming my discomfort with myself (not fitting in, not being perfect or even good enough) on my weight.

More recently I've become a whole lot happier with myself. I'm no longer depressed. I'm in an astounding relationship. I'm growing my armpit hair. I've stopped dying my hair. I don't always wear make up. I don't psyche myself up to leave my home.

I'm a whole lot fatter.

I'm not happy with the fat. I'm really not. I'm utterly loathe to admit it though. I've always outwardly maintained that I look how I look and anyone who doesn't like it can fuck off. That worked fine until I crossed a line a couple of dress sizes ago. It's rare that someone will say I "carry it well" (why say that in the first place? what does it matter?) anymore.

So. I'm fat and unhealthy. My disability makes me feel half a human and my larger body protests that. I seem to have gone outside the realms of acceptable protest though. If I get compliments now it's on my pretty face.

And then I have a go at myself for caring. :o|

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[info]sigelphoenix
2006-09-27 06:21 am UTC (link)
Congratulations on becoming happier with yourself. I don't know if we can ever get totally free from this mess - no matter how much progress I think I've made, I still catch myself having "ugly" thoughts for stupid reasons. But remembering the progress we've made is sometimes enough.

I think you can be unhappy with your body size, and still tell people who try to judge you to fuck off. Your body is your own business (with maybe an exception for people close to you - as long as their input is invited, of course).

I wish you the best, with both your weight and your disability (though I'm not going to give you any "advice" about what to do, because it's not my place!). Thank you for sharing your experience.

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[info]eloriane
2006-10-02 11:04 pm UTC (link)
"Or because we like girls - but, dammit, not in that pseudo-bisexual way that's all about getting a guy's dick up and not about actually having relationships with women (and, of course, having sex with him in the end, and only being with women if he's there to watch)."

I don't know you, but thank you.
I'm white, yes, but the wrong kind of white. Pale, freckly, green-eyed redheads are cute. Tan, blue-eyed blondes are pretty. I am not. I am brown, brown, and...pink. (If I were brown, brown and brown, I'd be prettier, like my Indian friend's sister, or my native american friend, or perhaps a Latino girl. But no, I am glaringly pale.) Add to that some nice child-bearing hips and shoulders to match, and plenty of fat without muscle, and a uniform that absolutely forbids any clothes that flatter me...it's bad.
But I deal with it. What really, really bothers me is the lack of any other lesbians at my high school. I am the only one. (since my first and only girlfriend dumped me to sleep with a boy.) And it's lonely. And it's much harder to put talk about than the appearance bit, because even if there is still a huge issue with body image, it's getting a lot more common for people to call bullshit on the "traditional" standards of beauty we're fed by the media. On the other hand, I have never before this article found another person who called bullshit on "fake lesbians" even I've always felt the distinction. I certainly never did-- I didn't have the words.
I want to thank you, on a personal level, for at least getting me closer to the words, at least getting me thinking about them. I also want to thank you for "getting it" even without experiencing it; I want to thank you for including me.
<3 Laura

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[info]sigelphoenix
2006-10-04 04:50 am UTC (link)
Hi Laura - high school, huh? I wish you the best. I had a good high school experience, compared to most of my friends, and yet I still felt sorely out of place many times. Post-high school, whether you go to college or not, at least you'll be able to get away from a lot of the ignorance surrounding you.
In the mean time, I hope you have lots of good things to balance out the stupidity.

One blog entry that I really like that takes on the "fake lesbians" phenomenon is here. The comments and links are also good.

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